2013 ZR1 Vs. 2013 GTS

[whynotthinkwhynot]

Originally Posted by Lscman

There is a huge difference between a true sports car and a ponycar when it comes to overall performance.

Yeah, apparently you're out of the loop when it comes to performance. ZL1 and 1LE Camaros trounce those much more expensive "refined" European sports sedans on the track. This is from Car and Driver's 2013 Lightning Lap trials. This is in order of fastest lap first. Now keep in mind that the Camaro 1LE package is only 420 hp which is more than 100 hp less than the BMW M6, M5, or the either Audi.

That being said, I don't like Camaros, but I respect what GM is doing. It's also nice to put down some whoop ass on snooty tooties who think their Yuurapeein' cars are so freaking almighty.

Ferrari 458 - 2.49.9
Lexus LFA - 2.55.1
Chevy Camaro ZL1 - 2.57.5
Mercedes AMG C63 Black Series - 2.58.0
Porsche 911 S - 2.58.9
Ford Shelby GT500 - 3.00.6
Chevy Camaro SS 1LE - 3.01.5
Jaguar XKR-S - 3.02.1
Porsche Boxster S - 3.04.2
Audi RS5 - 3.04.3
BMW M6 - 3.04.7
BMW M5 - 3.05.2
Audi S6 - 3.09.8
BMW 335i sedan - 3.13.2
Hyundai Genesis 3.8 R - 3.13.9
Dodge Charger Pursuit - 3.17.8
Subaru BRZ - 3.18.6
Ford Focus St - 3.21.4
Chevy Caprice PPV - 3.23.0
Fiat 500 Abarth - 3.27.3

[Mile30]

Originally Posted by kylesvt720

If I'm spending that money on a new car, It's the Viper. If I'm buying a Vette, I'm buying a used base C6, and building an 800whp monster with it.

Chuuuuuurch!!!

[Lscman]

Originally Posted by whynotthinkwhynot

Yeah, apparently you're out of the loop when it comes to performance. ZL1 and 1LE Camaros trounce those much more expensive "refined" European sports sedans on the track. This is from Car and Driver's 2013 Lightning Lap trials. This is in order of fastest lap first. Now keep in mind that the Camaro 1LE package is only 420 hp which is more than 100 hp less than the BMW M6, M5, or the either Audi.

That being said, I don't like Camaros, but I respect what GM is doing. It's also nice to put down some whoop ass on snooty tooties who think their Yuurapeein' cars are so freaking almighty.

Ferrari 458 - 2.49.9
Lexus LFA - 2.55.1
Chevy Camaro ZL1 - 2.57.5
Mercedes AMG C63 Black Series - 2.58.0
Porsche 911 S - 2.58.9
Ford Shelby GT500 - 3.00.6
Chevy Camaro SS 1LE - 3.01.5
Jaguar XKR-S - 3.02.1
Porsche Boxster S - 3.04.2
Audi RS5 - 3.04.3
BMW M6 - 3.04.7
BMW M5 - 3.05.2
Audi S6 - 3.09.8
BMW 335i sedan - 3.13.2
Hyundai Genesis 3.8 R - 3.13.9
Dodge Charger Pursuit - 3.17.8
Subaru BRZ - 3.18.6
Ford Focus St - 3.21.4
Chevy Caprice PPV - 3.23.0
Fiat 500 Abarth - 3.27.3

Not hardly....I'm on the track probably more than anyone on this forum, if that's the loop you speak of. Please note I said true sports car, not a sports sedan or coupe (more practical multi-purpose vehicles). These are two entirely different designs, so you're disputing something I didn't say. A sports sedan or coupe is not a true sports car. They have sedan underpinnings by definition, some with a couple doors welded shut, a few less door hinges and a curvier roofline. They have the same compromises as a ponycar.

This list showing "best lap time" does not fairly measure or compare world class performance. Any track racer will totally laugh at this test. A single fluke quick lap does not compare relative performance. If it's not repeatable, it's not relevant. I've been there, believe me. On a track there is no such thing as a one lap race. The front tires will begin overheating and chunking off the Camaro and Mustang after a half dozen hot laps, so the performance is not reliable, kinda like nitrous (scary and short-lived). Less than perfect track conditions will send these ponycars into the tire wall in the hands of the best drivers. Have you ever noticed ponycars always qualify well but finish poorly? They look strong for the first couple laps then fade. Genuine sports cars will run all day without issues because they have better balance. No doubt, the Camaro is more capable than Mustang.

Where are the two USA manufactured sports cars in this test?? Where is the Porsche flagship sports car? Are you aware both Vette and Viper produce lap times equal to the Ferrari 458 (7-10 seconds quicker than the Camaros)? They are quicker when comparing fastest laps and even more impressive when a dozen laps are run. Do you think this is a list of the fastest cars around?? How many legitimate sports cars ran slower than the Camaro and Mustang in this test? None. And how many non-vanity sports cars are in this test? None. Half of these cars are sedans while the slower 2 door cars are "vanity designs" like the Boxster, specifically optimized for business professionals and women looking for something showy. The M5, M6 and RS5 are overweight, sedan-based luxoboats. They compete against other heavy sedans like Dodge Charger or 335i, not sports cars. The door count is not relevant.

[azdamay]

I'd take either of those cars and drive it with pride. But I am poor, so the best I can hope for is one of those terrible pony cars/muscles cars meant for blue-collar poseurs.

[rambleon84]

No one here or anywhere is going to agree with anyone else on the cars. It comes down to personal taste and your wallet. I'd happily take any of the above mentioned cars but if i had my way, I'd be going Euro...I'd want some performance and refinement, never going to be spending much time on a track.

Originally Posted by whynotthinkwhynot

Ford Focus St - 3.21.4

Who left the keyfob on the roof?!?
They need to do more rounds with more cars and get the focus back on there. (also want to see the Taurus interceptor)

[Lscman]

Originally Posted by rambleon84

No one here or anywhere is going to agree with anyone else on the cars. It comes down to personal taste and your wallet. I'd happily take any of the above mentioned cars but if i had my way, I'd be going Euro...I'd want some performance and refinement, never going to be spending much time on a track.


Who left the keyfob on the roof?!?
They need to do more rounds with more cars and get the focus back on there. (also want to see the Taurus interceptor)

Every company makes a few good cars and each model has it's strengths and weaknesses. The key is to find a car that suits your needs. I'm open-minded and have no strong affinity for any particular brand. People stuck on one brand are invariably cheating themselves out of owning the ideal vehicle for their particular use.

However it's been my experience that most car guys know the difference between a true sports car (performance car with two seats) and a sports sedan (sporty-looking sedan). I owned both, a Vette sports car and a BMW sports sedan. They shared few similarities aside from a V8 motor, 275/40-17 rubber on all 4 corners, clutch pedal and 6spd manual. The sports car was lighter, handled much better, stopped faster and got better fuel economy. The perfect 50/50 Vette weight distribution and 4 wheel SLA suspension resulted in totally neutral handling and balanced tire wear under weekly track flogs. The BMW fit, finish & interior is much better & ride is very sophisticated. The Vette rode like an econobox or truck and it didn't carry 4 people with luggage. The 4dr rear wheel drive sports sedan was sprung a little soft but could duke it out with noseheavy muscle cars. The BMW V8 sedan weight distribution beats all muscle cars, near 52/48. It's heavy (3750lb) but "OK" for occasional track days. The ZO7 Vette was totally awesome for track and could be safely driven at 100% on a wet track while half asleep. BMW is notoriously forgiving too, but not nearly as capable. However The Vette was totally useless for daily family transportation. Needless to say, my impractical, fun sports car only lasted a few years before it was rejected by my wife. Vettes have amazing resale value, so it sold for more than I paid. The resale value of the BMW dropped like a rock. You can buy a decade old BMW for under $10K that cost $60K new.

When I bought my Euro sports sedan, the USA manufacturers did not offer one of similar potential. The only one close was the Lincoln LS. Sadly it was offered with V8 teamed with pathetic automatic tranny or underpowered V6 with 5spd manual. The first serious USA sports sedan with respectable performance was CTS-V. Ford is still clueless. The Taurus Interceptor is best described as an updated Freestyle SUV with a trunk. Chrysler V8 sedan platforms aren't much better. At least GM and Chrysler abandoned the 60's musclecar solid axle.

[Lscman]

Originally Posted by azdamay

I'd take either of those cars and drive it with pride. But I am poor, so the best I can hope for is one of those terrible pony cars/muscles cars meant for blue-collar poseurs.

Same here. I don't feel different about myself when driving a Focus, minivan, BMW or Viper. Frankly I'd rather been seen in flannel driving a piece of junk. The fun I feel when driving a performance car is all about exploring capabilities, improving skills and appreciating good technical design, not showing off. I owned plenty musclecars and own one today. They can definitely be appreciated for their bang for buck. However my pony car cost $3K, not $50K. I have no desire for a design-limited retro muscle car with solid axle that costs as much as a true sports car. Today's Shelby GT500 Mustang is a primitive blue collar car with gadgets, stickers and mega-white collar price tag. Kinda like a special edition $9 Wendy's hamburger with "everything". I'll skip the 2000 calorie biggie meal and eat at a nicer place when I have extra cash to blow. It's better for you.

[Dung1sm]

these cars are seriously gorgeous...